When the Mormons come to your door

[cos]

Apparently some Mormons stopped by my house last week, when I wasn't home, so I heard about it from Valerie later. She was not aware that the Mormon church funded California's proposition 8, donating the bulk of the money to run ads in the final weeks; it's quite likely that it would not have passed without their help.

If I were home when they came, I would have asked about it. I don't necessarily presume that young canvassers agree with their church, but it played such a pivotal role in passing the gay marriage ban, and here they are canvassing for converts, so they're at least acting in support of it. Mormon canvassers are, as far as I can tell, always polite, so I'd be polite. I'd also make it clear that I believe their church is a terrible influence on the world and I actively advise my friends to avoid it.

If Mormons come to your door, remember to ask them about prop 8? I'm curious to hear what they say.

Comments

[fidgetmonster.livejournal.com]

The 18/19yr olds on their two year mission have always been intriguing to me. They are young and impressionable and are doing what they think is right. It reminds me of when I was that age and went to college and slowly started to shed some of the 'indoctrination' that I'd been given as a teenager. Every time they have come to my door it has been with an offer to help with whatever I needed help with, not to read me stories about magic underwear, so they must get exposed to a lot. I wonder what the rate is of those who leave the church shortly after their mission period is up (akin to the Amish after they've had their year in regular society). Well, I think rites of passage in general intrigue me, and this is definitely one for young mormans.

[pir.livejournal.com]

What I've heard - and I've no idea how true this is - is that the mission period helps in a period where they're likely to be questioning most everything to cement their faith a lot more in explaining it to other people, talking to so many people about it and being positive about it all.

[randomorbit.livejournal.com]

I've known some who left the church. I think homosexuality is one of the most common reasons.

[randomorbit.livejournal.com]

They'll say that a marriage is between a man and one or more women. That homosexuality is an abomination, and an affront to god, but polygamy is alright as long as it's patriarchal. In the Mormon church if you go against church doctrine you're excommunicated. If you're gay, you're not saved.

[awfief.livejournal.com]

Your first sentence is correct. Your second sentence, however, does not take into account that the Mormons who practice polygamy are very very old school, not modern Mormons, and very rare.

I would phrase inquiries more along the lines of "Is it standard practice of the Mormon church to knowingly deceive people to try to get them not to sin?"

ie, along the lines of taking away the free will that G-d gave us, by lying.

(Also I might ask about the other cleanliness laws; so far as I know, the reasons Christians can eat pork is because when Jesus came the first time 'round he said "all those cleanliness laws in Leviticus? Forget 'em!" and I wonder if the homosexuality thing is one of those.)

[dscheuring.livejournal.com]

The prohibition against homosexuality is explicitly restated by "Paul" in the epistles. The Leviticus and the Story of Sodom and Gomorrah are more frequently quoted, but Paul is the real reason why christians think that their god hates the gays.

[barking-iguana.livejournal.com]

Actually, modern-day LDS is vehemently anti-polygamy, in order to live down their past and dissociate themselves from their recalcitrant distant cousins.

[satyrgrl.livejournal.com]

Of course, it is worth noting that banning polygamy was a condition of Utah's entrance into the Union, and likely it would still be practiced today had that not been the case.

[barking-iguana.livejournal.com]

I agree. But having made the change for what were political reasons, they had to justify it to themselves and their congregations as having been done for religious reasons. That has made them all the more emphatic in their revised orthodoxy. Given that this revision was about a century ago, I think it's quite misleading and ultimately counterproductive to imply that current LDS's association with polygamy requires them to take certain positions on other issues.

[benndragon.livejournal.com]

But afterlife polygyny is still doctrine - if you are male, your spouse dies, and you remarry, you will have two wives when you are in heaven. How does that fit into the larger picture?

[satyrgrl.livejournal.com]

Oh, I completely agree. I just also think it is counterproductive to imply, as no one here seems to but people often do, that LDS eliminated polygamy from its doctrine because church leaders saw the error of their misogynistic ways, because God told them to, or some similarly high-minded reason.

[cos]

So maybe it's like that "my ancestors came to this country legally, and now these new people want to break the rules!" attitude? (ignoring for a moment that fact that there was no way to immigrate illegally in earlier centuries; allowing polygamy was a way for a state to fail to be admitted)

[ron_newman]

When the Mormons first settled Utah, wasn't it still part of Mexico? I think their settlement predates the Cession by a couple of years.

[barking-iguana.livejournal.com]

Sort of, and months rather than years. From Wikipedia's page on Utah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah):

Brigham Young and the first band of Mormon pioneers came to the Salt Lake Valley on July 24, 1847. Over the next 22 years, more than 70,000 pioneers crossed the plains and settled in Utah...

In 1847 when the first pioneers arrived, Utah was still Mexican territory. As a consequence of the Mexican-American War, the land became the territory of the United States upon the signing of the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, February 2, 1848. The treaty was ratified by the United States Senate on March 10.

The war started in 1846, so the first Mormon settlers were actually crossing the border of enemy nations. Except neither country was actively administering the area, nor contesting it militarily.

[leora.livejournal.com]

I have a friend who is mormon. It may be relevant that he does not live in the US. He is confused why his church took this political stance, as he says usually they stay out of political issues and he perceives the distinction between religious and civil marriage. So, he thinks that religious marriage is between a man and a woman, but there is no reason that civil marriage should be denied to people of the same sex.

Obviously, he's in the minority in the Mormon church, but he hasn't been excommunicated.

It's really hard to find a group of people who are all bad. There will generally be some exceptions floating around.

[randomorbit.livejournal.com]

*disclaimer Yes I'm actually with you on the point of being polite, but in case diplomacy fails here's a question that might be fun to ask.

1. If I sucked your cock right now would we BOTH go to hell, or just you since my god says it's OK?

[elfy.livejournal.com]

hahahaha!!!!
great! :D

[crs.livejournal.com]

A couple weeks ago a couple Mormons on mission came to my door and I asked them exactly that; they said that yes, the church and its members were against homosexuality. They weren't aware of anything the church itself did for Prop 8, but did admit that various members of the church were probably inspired to donate or work towards the proposition that marriage should be kept between a man and a woman.

I didn't press them on the issue; I'm glad I kept it civil, but I want them to send the message back to wherever it is they report in, that they're hearing this question a lot, and it's making people less receptive.

[lil-brown-bat.livejournal.com]

Oh god cos, you are so so so so funny. They're not canvassers, they're missionaries.

Your filters are showing, seriously now.

[cos]

They're both, but I made a conscious choice to use the less specialized term because what it implies about what they're doing is closer to what I wanted to express.

[zwezda-polnoca.livejournal.com]

This is kind of like saying "all Catholics oppose homosexuality and birth control" or "Islam is inherently evil". It ain't true. Just because the church's party line is one thing does not mean that individual members buy into every last detail. I have cousins who are Mormon. One of them is a young man currently doing his mission trip. As far as I know, he has no problem with homosexuality and isn't even aggressively converting people. In his opinion, he is out there spreading a message which he believes to be capable of bringing people happiness. Now, I do not agree with that message, but I think it's safe to say his intentions are pure and unoffensive. Be careful of conflating the church as an organization with the people who belong to it.

[cos]

It's not like that at all, especially since I said "don't necessarily presume that young canvassers agree with their church" - nevertheless, they are performing an activity in support of that church (and putting a lot of their time and effort into it), so it is entirely a fair question to put to them (and potentially more interesting if the don't agree with what the church did).

[randomorbit.livejournal.com]

They're not at your door for to sell cookies, they're there representing their church, and actively trying to persuade others that their church doctrine is right. When they're off duty I can give them the benefit of the doubt as individuals, but a missionary is a spokesperson for the church. Maybe when they're off duty we can toss back a few brewskis at a gay bar, but as long as they're representing the church I'm going to treat them as representatives of their church.

Given their churches conspicuous involvement in prop 8 the first thing I'm gonna want to know about their "faith" is what they've got against the expression of love and commitment of 2 individuals who happen to be of the same gender? Why do they think it's their moral obligation to take away the rights of others because of who they love.

[cos]

I have canvassed for political candidates who had some position or other that i disagreed with (though never something I disagreed with quite as strongly as this example). I've thought about how I'd answer if someone asked me about that particular thing - someone who shared my view rather than my candidate's. In all of these cases, of course, I had good reason to support the candidate on balance, and very strongly, so I had some good answers that would've been interesting if anyone had asked. In practice, people tend not to ask questions like that when you're canvassing for a candidate, though.

[eirias.livejournal.com]

Is there really a polite way to say "I believe [your] church is a terrible influence on the world and I actively advise my friends to avoid it"? I mean sure, one can say such a thing non-belligerently, but is that the same thing as politeness?

[cos]

Sure there is, though I'd definitely start with the question, to get a sense of these particular individuals' views before deciding how to say that part.

[drwex]

They're not supposed to go after Jews. Generally I don't see them because they see the mezzuzah on the door first.

[estheruth.livejournal.com]

Ooh, I should get one of those! I think a big 'fuck off, I'm an atheist' sign might just draw them.

[leora.livejournal.com]

That's weird. I didn't know that. Do you know why that is?

[drwex]

We're the original people, or something like that. Many of the door-to-door proselytes aren't supposed to bother jews.