What car should I buy?

[cos]

I meant my current car to be "temporary", then four and a half years passed. It's time: I'm not about to move, or change jobs, or spend half the summer away from home, or work on a big campaign in the next few months, so I can do stuff like find a car. What should I look at?

Whatever I get, I want to keep for a long time. At least 200k miles, maybe 300k or more. New or used is okay. I don't plan to resell for a long time.

It needs to basically work, and stay reliable as long as I maintain it regularly and fix things as soon as I know they need fixing.

I don't care if it looks cool or feels great to drive or any of those things, just reasonable.

I do want to be able to get up steep dirt roads in Vermont and the Berkshires and such places in bad weather. That doesn't necessarily mean all wheel drive. My previous car, a Saturn SL2 with front wheel drive and "traction control" (ability to have the two front wheels turn separately) was very good at it. My current car, a Saturn SL1 (less power) with front wheel drive and no traction control, is not good at it. I'd take a front wheel w/traction again.

And I want fuel efficiency, particularly on highways and country roads, which account for the majority of my driving. I've been getting 33-39mpg on those kinds of roads in my current Saturn, though it's not rated that high. I'd like something that good or better.

Edit: I'd also like to have as much space as a Saturn SL2/SL1, for people and for stuff. More space would be fine, but not needed. It'd be annoying to have to adjust to a car with less space.

Suggestions?

Comments

[whuffle.livejournal.com]

For fuel efficient, good for long life span, low maintenance, rock-solid reliable, and typicially able to handle Berkshires etc roads, consider some of the following:

Scion xA or xD
Mazda 3 or 6 series
Toyota Matrix or Corolla
Honda Fit or Civic

[dphilli1.livejournal.com]

mazda3 (2.3liter engine) gets about 30mph highway, 25 city.

the new 3s have a 2.5liter engine, so expect lower milage

[whuffle.livejournal.com]

Hrmm. Good to know. I'd rented one and it seemed to get better mileage than that. Must have been a slightly older model.

OTOH, Mazda offers the cool hybrid transmissions where you can swap in and out of manual or automatic. I really liked that on the rental I used.

[dphilli1.livejournal.com]

well, my 3 gets the above numbers. YMMV, literally.

The transmission is kinda fun, but I find I never use it unless I need to do engine braking in the mtns, or keep the car in low gears on snow/ice.

[whuffle.livejournal.com]

Yes, but when you do need the flexibility of manual control boy is that feature handy!

[inahandbasket]

I agree with most of this, with some reservations...
- The Matrix doesn't get very good mileage compared to the rest of this group.
- The Mazda's are quite excellent and usually comparatively cheap used. Also consider '99-'03 Protege's. Again, mileage will likely be under 30mpg.

As hawver mentions below, Civics and Corollas are the two most reliable cars on the road for the most part.
That said, if I were in your shoes I'd likely go with a Scion xA or xD. I'm partial to Toyotas but don't much like Corollas after having owned two.

[whuffle.livejournal.com]

Actually if you want long term reliablity and low maintenance then a used protege is a bad choice. I've known 3 people who had them and thy were a serious maintenance headache on par with most of the VWs I've known.

BTW, Edmunds review says that if considering a Scion versus the lower cost Toyota Yaris, skip the Yaris and go for the Scion. The Yaris apparently gets poor marks compared to the Scion because it feels rather cheaply made.

I'm on my second Toyota. The first was an 81 Tercel that got run into the ground after 12 years of use. The engine still turned over in the dead of winter when it was retired. It was the body rust that finally made the car unsafe to drive. The current car is a 93 Corolla that has well over 150k miles on the clock. In the end, the body rust is gonna be what stops this baby. Every three years or so I need to do $500-$1000 of maintenance mostly due to city driving wear & tear like shocks and brakes and exhaust parts rusting.

[whuffle.livejournal.com]

The other caveat to buying a Scion is whether or not you need cargo room. The xA and xD aren't big on cargo capacity. They are fantastic city or commuter cars. If you want cargo room too though, you'll have to go with the less elegant but more capacious xB. (Nicknamed Box for a reason...)

[ravenword.livejournal.com]

My boyfriend and I have an xB of the previous generation (the more boxy-looking one). We test-drove a 2008 xB and it is quite spacious, but they upgraded the engine as well as the body, so it gets slightly worse MPG. (We usually get between 30-35 MPG in the 2006 xB, mostly city driving. Highway is a bit more efficient, but the boxy shape creates a lot of drag at high speeds -- the xA is better that way.) It's amazing for hauling a lot of people/stuff around, though. A car shaped like a box makes moving sooo easy.

The little box can handle mountain roads, but not with the greatest of ease. We survived taking Rte. 2 out to western MA and back, but most other cars were passing us.

We preferred the old xB to the new xB, but the more powerful engine of the newbie might suit you better. The newer model is more expensive, but includes as standard things like cruise control and an iPod dock, which were optional upgrades for the 2006 model. (Now that we're making fairly regular trips from ATL to FL, we wish we had cruise control.) If you can find anybody still selling an old xB you can compare and contrast yourself.

Previous car was a workhorse '92 Camry that was good for 16 years of tough love.

Scion, and cruise control

[cos]

Cruise control is really sucky for fuel efficiency, because it does exactly the opposite of what makes sense: It applies more gas when you're going uphill, and then slows you down when you're going downhill (and makes no use of flat sections). It's basically trying its best to waste gas without driving unreasonably.

Which is to say: I do not want cruise control, even though I do a lot of all-day drives :)

Which is the little box, the xB? If it has trouble with route 2, it probably wouldn't do at all for the kinds of roads I'm thinking of, but maybe there's another Scion that's better at those. What kind of drive is it?

Re: Scion, and cruise control

[ravenword.livejournal.com]

The 2006 xB is the "little box." It's the top car here:



The newer model is pictured on the bottom. From this review of the newer model: "Only one engine is offered for the 2008 Scion xB, a 2.4-liter 158 horsepower in-line four cylinder. With more power, the xB has unfortunately lost some fuel efficiency. The EPA rates the xB at 22 miles per gallon in the city and 28 mpg on the highway. Weight has increased by about 600 pounds which does not help its fuel economy." The little box's engine is 1.5 liters, 103 horsepower. Both are front-wheel drive. I think traction control is standard in the newer model; not sure about the 2006 (but it is available). Perhaps the bigger engine in the newer one would be better for mountain roads. Steep hills are okay in the older one, but you end up slowing down noticeably.

Re: Scion, and cruise control

[dphilli1.livejournal.com]

"Cruise control is really sucky for fuel efficiency"

Really? I've always noticed the economy on long trips goes up when I use the cruise control as compared to when antimony drives the same leg without CC...

I guess the real question is which wastes more energy --
1) using brakes to convert forward momentum to heat
2) using engine braking to convert forward momentum into engine rpms.

My gut tells me engine braking is more efficient b/c you can get some of the energy back in the form of faster acceleration at the bottom of the hill.

Also, I think mataining a constant speed is more efficient than oscillating.

The most efficient (I think) would be to turn the car off at the top of the hill and coast down, turn the engine back on when drops below set speed, but this setup isn't going to happen, b/c you need brakes and stuff to keep working...

Re: Scion, and cruise control

[cos]

Well, a human certainly *can* drive a lot less efficiently than cruise control. But a human can very easily drive a lot more efficiently than cruise control, because cruise control does some really wrong things.

To increase fuel efficiency, you can coast on the downhills (neutral is better, but switching back and forth into neutral puts more wear on your transmission so that maybe you'll need to replace it twice during the life of the car instead of once, so it's a tradeoff that depends on other stuff), use the flats and/or downhills to gain speed, and slowly lose speed on the uphills. Do not keep a constant speed, let it vary up by to 15mph (so in a 65 zone, maybe vary between 55-70), use less gas when going uphill. Keep a long enough distance between yourself and the car in front of you that you can avoid ever needing to break except in really dense traffic.

Re: Scion, and cruise control

[barking-iguana.livejournal.com]

When sharing cars, I've always gotten better mileage than even other people who drive for good mileage. And I do that while maintaining a constant (rather high) speed, so long as the road isn't so hilly that' I'd need the brake to do so. Provided you're not so relaxed about time that you're prepared to coast down to below 40 mph, the4 two biggest thing you can do to reduce fuel consumption are coasting when you know you'll have to slow down anyway and, despite all the semi-nonsense about avoiding jackrabbit starts, accelerate up to the speed where it's safe to upshift as rapidly as you can without making the engine ping. You want to spend as little time as possible in low gears, because they're inherently wasteful.

Re: Scion, and cruise control

[antimony.livejournal.com]

I never noticed a significant difference in fuel efficiency between you and me on long car trips. I have no recollection of us ever doing that comparison. Besides, we almost always split tanks.

I do, though, drive at least 5-10 mph faster, on average, on freeways. Which alone would drop the mileage a fair bit.

vouch

[sweetmmeblue.livejournal.com]

I LOVE my Matrix

But I'd add Subaru to that list. The outback sport would totally fit your requirements but is harder on fuel than the ones listed. Mazda's are expensive to fix as you can ONLY use factory direct parts (discovered this with the mazda minivan I had).

Re: vouch

[cos]

I've mostly stuck to using a Saturn dealership on my two Saturns over the past 12 years, and have thus mostly stuck to factory parts. I don't mind that, because it saves me time part-hunting while still ensuring that I get good parts and the car lasts for a very long time. However, I don't know if Mazda has the sort of customer-service-oriented dealership system as Saturn...

[hawver.livejournal.com]

This is a easy one, you have two choices.

1. Honda Civic
2. Toyota Corolla

Either one will fulfill all of your requirements. Also for the love of god, stay away from any "domestic" car.

[dr-memory.livejournal.com]

This.

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

Our last two cars were Toyota Camrys, which is slightly larger than what you need. The Toyota Corolla ought to do you well.

When we bought our car, we also looked at some Hyundai models as well -- Hyundai doesn't have the reputation for reliability that Toyota has, but that is changing. Their newer models appear to be very reliable, and they've been slapping excellent warranties on them, too.

Almost everything made today has traction control. Pretty much everything that you list as "necessary" for you is standard in pretty much any new car you'd buy. Traction control, active braking system.

Pretty much, all you want to be doing is looking at new Hondas, Toyotas, and Hyundais, and buying the smallest one that will fit what you're going to need to do with it. Let's face it -- fuel efficiency is really mostly a matter of not getting a car that's too bit. Smaller the car, less gas it takes -- simple physics.

[dphilli1.livejournal.com]

stability/traction control is going to be required on all new cars (at least that is what the Mazda ppl told me when I bought mine in 08). It makes enough of a safety difference that the Gov't is requiring it.

[msmidge.livejournal.com]

I went from a Saturn SL to a 2006 Scion xB recently. I'm happy with the switch! The xB has lots more room; particularly, the room for passengers in the back is awesome. We took it on a trip from Atlanta to and through the Great Smoky Mountains National Park and it did fine on the mountain roads. It's a manual transmission and I'm getting about 30 mpg city. It's worth a test drive.

[cos]

and it did fine on the mountain roads

Hmm, but see ravenword's comment above, about her xB?

When you say "the mountain roads" do you mean paved roads, in decent weather?

I'm specifically talking about steep unpaved weird windy roads covered with snow. I've always had several friends who live on such roads.

[cutieperson]

i'm surprised by ravenword's comment. klingonlandlady, frobzwiththings and sensesurfer all have xB's and don't seem to have trouble with the kinds of roads you're talking about. including bringing them up the mountain road to The Abode...

[sauergeek.livejournal.com]

I own a Mazda Miata and haven't had any trouble bringing it up to The Abode, so despite the steepness, that road isn't that challenging to a car's ability to climb.

[cutieperson]

i think it depends a lot on the load.

[ravenword.livejournal.com]

Heh. The winter before we moved to GA, we tried taking our xB up a snow-covered paved road in Belmont, on a pretty big hill. The snow was still falling but it wasn't exactly a blizzard, just moderate snowfall with big flakes. We were doing okay until the car in front of us stopped. So then we stopped. And proceeded to slide slowly down to the bottom of the hill. Ended up going a different way home. (And as soon as we got to Newton, we reaped the benefits of their high property taxes -- the roads were already salted and snow-free, so no more problems.)

[ravenword.livejournal.com]

Although, to be fair, other big and manly SUVs on that road were having the same problem, so it may have just been especially slippery.

[randomorbit.livejournal.com]

Snow tires, preferably studded, are indispensable for VT winters especially if back roads are a regular part of your driving. With snow tires most front wheel drive cars will do alright. Subarus I've driven have all been very nice. I drove a forester from Boston to Montpelier in a blizzard last winter, and it did extremely well, but all wheel drive has a price when it comes to gas mileage. A Subaru will get worse mileage than a similar sized car with similar engine displacement.

[msmidge.livejournal.com]

I never use this "word," but: LOL.

[msmidge.livejournal.com]

Paved roads in rain. I can't speak from experience about snow since I didn't have the xB the one time it snowed this year in Georgia. I can imagine it potentially not doing well with unplowed roads since it's so low to the ground.

If it helps, I believe it does have traction control, and it handles very well a weird curve on a paved road that my Saturn always used to slip on. So it might work....

[lil-brown-bat.livejournal.com]

Any FWD sedan will do what you want. Get a wagon if you need cargo space, buy Toyota for reliability. Matrix has more zip than Corolla although supposedly it's the same engine (different gearing). If you regularly drive in snowy conditions winter (I'm talking for real, snow on the road, not like the average Bostonian who rarely actually drives in snow), consider doing the smart thing and getting snow tires rather than the dumb thing (that nearly everybody does) and spending tons of money on AWD and crap like that.

[mosephine.livejournal.com]

yes to this - more often than not, it's the tires that make the difference in being able to drive well in inclement conditions, not the engine/traction control/whatnot. good luck :)

[mosephine.livejournal.com]

... though I disagree with the premise that the average Bostonian hardly ever drives on actual snow ;) If the average Bostonian has to commute by car to work, they drive on actual snow in the winter. At least, that was my experience as a driving commuter.

[lil-brown-bat.livejournal.com]

Eh. Depends on your standard of comparison. I used to live in Boston; now I live in western Mass and commute to Boston weekly. Compared to someone living in Texas, it's not "hardly ever", but compared to someone living no farther than the other end of the state...believe me, it's hardly ever.

[somechicksings.livejournal.com]

i like my Hyundai Elantra a lot. it doesn't quite get the gas milage of a Corolla or Fit, (i usually get about 28-29mpg) but it's a Super Ultra Low Emission Vehicle, the hatchback means there's plenty of room for 4-5 pple & stuff, it comes with 5 years of roadside assistance & a 10 year warranty, & the newer ones have traction control & ABS. Also, it was several thousand less than the Toyotas or Hondas I looked at, so that more than makes up for the slightly lower mpgs, especially for someone like me who drives ~5,000 m/year.

[cos]

Heh. I seem to spend about $1600/year on gas.

My lowest year was 2005, at about $950 - I was out of money and working for campaigns all year on super low income so I was trying very hard to save money. My highest year was 2004, at about $3000, but that was the year I wasn't out of money and volunteering for campaigns for the presidential race all year, going to Iowa and Wisconsin and Ohio and Florida and such.

Other than those two, though, I've spent about $1600 on gas all but one year since I started keeping track in 2003. I'd really love 40mpg! (I've gotten that good with my Saturns a few times, but usually I'm in the low to mid 30s).

[porfinn.livejournal.com]

I own a Toyota Matrix XR 04 (they come in a couple other flavors-- if you are truly interested in a Matrix I will happily give you more info, but I see no reason to bore you right now) and I regularly drive my parents' Scion A (I believe that is the "box"). Their Scion is the first generation really boxy version. It is a fun car, but I prefer my Matrix for driving comfort and power. I do enjoy driving, and I like my car to be fun to drive, but if I had bought a car with only that in mind, I would have gotten a Mini!

What I was looking for in a car was good gas mileage (I live in LA--'nough said) and as much space as I could possible get in a something that was not an SUV (i really don't like driving those pregnant elephants). My first pick was a Honda Fit. I am 5'10" and the Fit didn't fit me at all. I am very comfortable in a modern Mini, the Fit was seemed absurdly small.

I bought my Matrix with sixty thousand miles on it three years ago and it has not had one problem (my parents bought their Scion new five years ago, and it also has been extremely reliable). The back seat area is roomy enough for my mom's six-foot frame. When the backseats are declined, the trunk-bed goes flat, and provides enough room for me to sleep. My bicycle can fit inside the car. The front passenger seat will also fold flat so I can easily fit a 5'10" surfboard. I also shoved in a washer and dryer (yes, together) back there and still had room for a passenger in the front seat.

My combined street/freeway driving mileage is consistently 30 mpg, but I will get up to 35-39 on a road trip. When I chose the Matrix I also went to a pick-a-part to see how hard it would be to get replacement bits and pieces. There are a lot of Matrices out there. I have also been very, very pleased with the power of my car. Going up to Big Bear (a seven to eight thousand feet elevation gain) is very easy (my parents Scion finds it considerably more effort). I suppose there are two small things I dislike. One is that the bumper on my 2004 model is a very poor design, but that seems to have been remedied in the newer cars. The other thing I don't like is that there is a blind spot (but my Subaru wagon's and the Outback's are worse). The pane behind the main window for the rear passenger, on both sides of the car, is a flawed design that creates a blind spot for me. This was easily remedied by putting a sticker on the window past the blind spot so I have to look all the way to the sticker to make sure I know if there is a car coming up directly behind me in the right-hand lane.

The Matrix satisfied all of my criteria, and exceeded my expectations. I hope what ever you find meets your needs as admirably. I have no trouble recommending a Matrix (if you have any questions, I don't mind answering them). Most cars drive me crazy because the engineers seem to have never driven a car before! (why the hell did you put THAT there?) The interior of the Matrix has been very reasonable.

One last thing. I use to do most of my own repairs, but these days I just take it to the dealer. I have been very happy with the Toyota dealer in my area. Almost without fail I get a coupon for an oil change about the time I need it done. This does NOT mean all Toyota dealerships are pleasant, but you might keep that in mind if you like taking your car in to a dealership to get it maintained. My parents had been very pleased with the near by Toyota dealer. The near by Honda dealership was just ok. Maybe in your area the Honda dealer is fabulous and the Toyota dealer is mediocre, but that is something to investigate and might be a deciding factor in what type of car you buy.

[477150n.livejournal.com]

I can see you have friends who think more about cars than me, but I do love my Prius. Big trunk, plenty of room in the back seat, good gas mileage, does great on hills and slick weather (front wheel drive, traction control; we put studded tires on in the winter, because we go skiing). The only drawbacks I see: (1) Relatively expensive compared to non-hybrids, (2) Can't tow, (3) Poor clearance (does fine on unpaved roads, even in winter, but if the roads are very rutted, you're hosed).

[taliakit.livejournal.com]

I'm doing nearly 100% highway driving in my '05 Corolla, and it's getting 40mpg or so. But, I have no idea how it would do on unpaved roads or in snow.

I got to 170k on the '90 Corolla, and probably could have gotten a lot more out of it if I had been willing to spend a bunch on maintenance to get it back in good condition.

[lil-brown-bat.livejournal.com]

I'm doing nearly 100% highway driving in my '05 Corolla, and it's getting 40mpg or so. But, I have no idea how it would do on unpaved roads or in snow.

With the right tires, it would do fine. I drove my Tercel over dirt roads to my job at a ski area in Vermont for four years.

[roamin-umpire.livejournal.com]

Not that this is helpful, but you seem to be having the same issue that I'll have in a few years when I need to replace my car. To wit: Why the **** did Saturn get rid of its SL series? It was exactly what I wanted when we bought it in 2000, and it's pretty must still exactly what I want in a car.

Ah, well, leave it to GM to screw that up, too.

[dani-namaste.livejournal.com]

I'd suggest a Corolla. Toyotas are built like tanks, you'll get plenty of space, and it's actually rated pretty well on gas mileage. You could also consider waiting until the new Prius's come out (I think in October), which have a more powerful engine than the previous versions, but I don't know how much space/moving up mountains fu you'll get.

[nebel.livejournal.com]

Subaru! Subaru subaru subaru!

Even the sedans are AWD and mountain road worthy, with good mpg. My Impreza does about 30mpg on average (city + highway) , but i'm sure the the newer models are better than that. They don't break, and everyone i know who has had them drives them forever.

I have about 40k on my car now, and I love it to death.